FZone Regulator Fail

[JayP]

Well, I'd read other reviews of people frustrated with failures of the cheaper CO2 regulators like FZone and even CO2Art. Today I had an FZone failure. It wasn't a regulator I purchased new but one that came with a used tank setup, so I don't know how old it was. I was doing something else in the basement when I noticed the drop checker on the farm tank was yellow. Looked down at the bubble counter and CO2 was pouring out. It was about time for CO2 to shut off anyway. Tank still has plenty of CO2 and regulator is dual stage so I'm assuming needle valve issue. Fish were indeed acting a little lethargic but not yet gasping for air. I did a quick partial water change and I think all is good now. I do have an extra FZone regulator I purchased a couple months ago that hasn't even been out of the box that I'll swap with. I also have some GLA regulators but they're all going to the display tanks. Oh well.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Time to invest in a buy-it-for-life regulator setup from @Bettatail

 

[JayP]

Time to invest in a buy-it-for-life regulator setup from @Bettatail

Only if I were ultra wealthy like you Skylight Hyperspot people.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Only if I were ultra wealthy like you Skylight Hyperspot people.

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

It’s not completely unaffordable. I got a Victor regulator on eBay for $60, solenoid for maybe $25-30? Maybe $100 total for my setup? CO2 is def an investment and one you want to be the most fool proof and consistent.

 

[JayP]

It’s not completely unaffordable. I got a Victor regulator on eBay for $60, solenoid for maybe $25-30? Maybe $100 total for my setup? CO2 is def an investment and one you want to be the most fool proof and consistent.

When I researched parts for that build, it was looking like well over $500.

 

[Koan]

@Bettatail is always happy to help you figure out all the bits and pieces to put together a post-body (all the bits of including solenoid and needle valve that go between the regulator and the output) , he's helping me put together one right now!

He has good sources for good prices on the parts as well

Or you can buy one pre-made

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

Bettatail’s setups for sure are excellent, top of the line. But a lot of those parts are for aesthetics, I personally don’t give a damn if I have all stainless or if there’s some brass mixed in. I know some people are big on how their equipment looks, I’m not one of em. The tank is my display and what I want to show. You can make a reasonably priced build on a solid budget.

And I do apologize I forgot include my needle valve which was a nice Swagelok which I think was close to $50.
So around $150 total for mine, still reasonable IMO.

 

[Koan]

Time to invest in a buy-it-for-life regulator

Or a cheap homemade Yugang reactor safety-sized for overflow mode

 

[JayP]

Or a cheap homemade Yugang sized for overflow mode

This is actually what I'm working on. I'm just slow and trying to work on too many projects at the same time. Maybe it is time to retire, so I can work on all these fun things.

 

[JayP]

Bettatail’s setups for sure are excellent, top of the line. But a lot of those parts are for aesthetics, I personally don’t give a damn if I have all stainless or if there’s some brass mixed in. I know some people are big on how their equipment looks, I’m not one of em. The tank is my display and what I want to show. You can make a reasonably priced build on a solid budget.

And I do apologize I forgot include my needle valve which was a nice Swagelok which I think was close to $50.
So around $150 total for mine, still reasonable IMO.

Yeah, I originally saw his build before I joined the Scapecrunch forums and I looked up the part list just as he calls it out. The metering valve and solenoid alone were over $300, but I didn't do an exhaustive search.

 

[Koan]

trying to work on too many projects at the same time

MGS, Many Gadget Syndrome inevitable and natural sequel to Multiple Tank Syndrome

 

[Bettatail]

The parts were cheap and abundant back in early 2010s, I showed fellow hobbyists what to get, and some people bought Parker HR metering valve for $25 each, burkert 2822 stainless steel solenoid for $20, and new stainless steel Matheson 3800 double stage regulator for less than $50...
It was possible to build a high end complete stainless steel double stages co2 system for less than $150 around that time, pretty rewarding because the parts are all industrial/lab/aero grade.
Many hobbyists DIY their own high end co2 systems.

Slowly the good and cheap parts were depleted.
from around 2014, DIY a set of high end stainless steel double stage is normally $250 or more budget, now it is much higher.

Less people DIY due to the higher cost, but some hobbyists contact me from time to time, especially from the reef community, I help them for their DIY project and show them what to get from eBay, most keep the cost below their DIY budget unless some of the parts they really want but without cheap alternative.

 

[JayP]

The parts were cheap and abundant back in early 2010s, I showed fellow hobbyists what to get, and some people bought Parker HR metering valve for $25 each, burkert 2822 stainless steel solenoid for $20, and new stainless steel Matheson 3800 double stage regulator for less than $50...
It was possible to build a high end complete stainless steel double stages co2 system for less than $150 around that time, pretty rewarding because the parts are all industrial/lab/aero grade.
Many hobbyists DIY their own high end co2 systems.

Slowly the good and cheap parts were depleted.
from around 2014, DIY a set of high end stainless steel double stage is normally $250 or more budget, now it is much higher.

Less people DIY due to the higher cost, but some hobbyists contact me from time to time, especially from the reef community, I help them for their DIY project and show them what to get from eBay, most keep the cost below their DIY budget unless some of the parts they really want but without cheap alternative.

Now that I see your original parts list isn't a hard rule and there are cheaper alternatives that are still high level, I'll take another look at doing a build. May message you when I get to that point.

 

[Bettatail]

Now that I see your original parts list isn't a hard rule and there are cheaper alternatives that are still high level, I'll take another look at doing a build. May message you when I get to that point.

let me know when you are ready, there always some good deals/missed identified valuable parts show up on ebay, not often but wait long enough you will have good luck.

 

[CincyScaper]

On a different take as I learn to understand co2 injection deeply, if one’s surface agitation is good enough and has no surface scum, is the top of the tank an overflow with inline co2 diffuser ? Meaning that if you have enough surface agitation is it possible not to be able to get higher co2 ppm than the trough level ?

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

On a different take as I learn to understand co2 injection deeply, if one’s surface agitation is good enough and has no surface scum, is the top of the tank an overflow with inline co2 diffuser ? Meaning that if you have enough surface agitation is it possible not to be able to get higher co2 ppm than the trough level ?

Yes, to some extent. Aggressive surface agitation helps "flatten the curve" to prevent gassing.

2HrAquarist has a good article:

Surface agitation & gaseous exchange in CO2 injected tanks

Surface agitation in a planted aquarium - yes or not ? This page explores why having some surface agitation and turnover is actually useful in planted tanks and actually makes tuning CO2 to optimal levels more easy.

www.2hraquarist.com

 

[Koan]

is the top of the tank an overflow

Is your question whether or not surface agitation off-gassing can make it impossible to accidentally exceed the tolerance of your fish?



Dennis's point is that adequate off gassing makes it possible for you to tune your CO2 diffuser injection to a level where you will stay safe for your fish.

To maintain these levels safely when injecting this way, you are dependent on a high quality, stable needle valve with a dual stage regulator. These are the main selling points for higher-end regulator systems or custom systems.

You need that stable needle valve and dual stage reactor for protection from accidental injection rate increase or end of tank dump event. The amount of surface agitation required to protect you from that level of overdose through an inline diffuser would turn your tank into a washing machine

This is different from the kind of protection provided by the Yugang reactor design. The horizontal reactor will simply fail to dissolve any CO2 above the design maximum at its absorption surface area, but instead will off-gas the excess in large bubbles straight to the surface.

 

[CincyScaper]

To maintain these levels safely when injecting this way, you are dependent on a high quality, stable needle valve with a dual stage regulator. These are the main selling points for higher-end regulator systems or custom systems.

Thanks, but why ? If the curve flattens it should not matter if more co2 is injected.

I completely see the point on the Yugang which is my next project, but want to make sure I understand the in-line Co2 + surface agitation conundrum.

 

[Koan]

If the curve flattens it should not matter if more co2 is injected.

The duration of that flat area of the curve is not infinite it is limited by the actual off-gassable surface area of your tank.

CO2 gas exits the water at a fixed speed, defined by it's Henry's law constant. The volume of gas that is able to exit per unit time is strictly a function of your available surface area.

A clean air-water interface from a skimmer maximizes the rate of exit from that surface area, and agitation physically increases that surface area by circulating the off-gassing water at the interface. But the surface capacity is still finite.

If you overdose, that concentration of injected CO2 will will overwhelm your available surface off-gassing capacity per unit time, and reach toxic levels in the water.

Does that make sense?