The Custom Micro Mix Thread

[Burr740]

Can thank Edward of PPS fame for that chart. "Upgraded CSMB" he just added Zn to it...after reading the original custom micro thread where some of us were already doing it. Similar to how pps came about, but I digress..

Fe and Mn have a distinct affect on each other. Soil research (on crops plants) is clear that around 3:1 Fe:Mn is best. That doesnt usually translate to aquariums ime. Ive played with Mn up to 2:1 Fe:Mn and down say 10:1, Flourish levels. Spent probably a couple of years at 3-3.5:1

One thing to note it makes a difference if youre using chelated Mn like CSMB and Millers have, or non-chelated SO4 like Flourish Comp and most liquids, including mine

It may be the non-chelated version packs a more powerful punch, which is why there's less Mn in the liquids. Idk, but using non-chelated MnSO4.H2O I get far better results with less. My blend has about 7:1 Fe:Mn

Early 10's a lot of people were copying Barr's routine of spiking csmb with dtpa and glut to a ratio of 3:1:1. That puts the Fe:Mn ratio around 6:1 (csmb comes with ~3.5:1)

Steve my opinion is I dont think jacking Mn will cure stunting in anything. It does have a relationship with Ca. Maybe in the case of really high Ca it might help. Or if Fe was too high more Mn would have a counteractive effect. A few may have seen it in their individual circumstance, but in general folks dont wanna start spiking Mn. It'll just make Fe less efficient. The ones who saw an improvement could probably get the same effect just dosing less Fe...imho

 

[Immortal1]

Funny, I was considering answering Steve's question...
Guess my response would have rated a C-. Joe on the other hand gets an A+ LOL

 

[Ed Wiser]

I will be using my GHL dosers to dose this daily. As I did with my SPS corals. I found that corals uptake elements extremely fast.

 

[Art]

Ed, can you please make a post/review of the GHL doser? I've got an Apex DOS and I don't love it. Interested to learn more about the GHL.

 

[Ed Wiser]

Will do Art. I have used dosers for years now.

 

[Ed Wiser]

Dosing Pumps

Coming from the reef hobby dosing pumps are a necessary piece of equipment. Coral consume elements like calcium at a high rate if they are healthy and growing. You have to maintain a constant alk level of 8.3 To do this people used calcium reactors that by adding co2 dissolved calcium pellets...

scapecrunch.com

 

[Immortal1]

Something that came up while mixing up my latest batch of micro's
Joe Harvey recommended "ascorbic acid" for mold prevention (sorbic acid?)
Gregg Zydeck recommended "potassium sorbate" for mold prevention (or distilled white vinegar).

So, as a non-chemist, what's the difference between the various products? Do they do the same thing?
So as I am learning;

Many fruits and vegetables, including oranges, spinach, tomatoes and berries, are rich in ascorbic acid--better known as vitamin C. Used as a natural ingredient preservative, ascorbic acid can prevent browning, reduce the risk of mold and other microbial growth and ultimately, preserve the freshness of a product.

Sorbic acid was first isolated from mountain ash berries in the 1800s and has since become a common ingredient in commercially produced food. Sorbic acid has both antimicrobial and antifungal properties--in other words, it inhibits the growth of some types of bacteria and fungi. Sorbic acid is often used in wineries because it prevents the growth of organisms that would spoil sweet wines.

Potassium sorbate is produced from sorbic acid and potassium hydroxide through neutralization. It is a potassium salt that breaks down into water and carbon dioxide when consumed. While increasing the shelf-life of products and stopping yeast from continuing to ferment in wine. Both Sorbic acid and Potassium sorbate are widely used as preservatives and antimicrobial agents.

Distilled White Vinegar seems to be a very popular product for killing mold on many surfaces.

So, it would seem all of the above can be used to help prevent mold growth in our custom micro mixes

 

[BigWave]

@Immortal1 Potassium sorbate as we use it is strickly a mold, fungus, bacteria inhibitor. It stops that stuff from forming inside our containers. This is why many many foods have it also. Its reffered to as Food E number 202. Another substitute we see a lot is Seachem Excel aka Glute. Hospitals use it to stop all life period. Eg cleaning utentsels and rooms.
Ascorbic acid, Battery acid (sulfuric acid), Vinigar, the list goes on does one thing. It reduces the pH of the solution. Many of our chemicals when added together dont like each other eg Mono Potassium Sulfate - KH2PO4 and Most Iron salts. They produce an insoluble compound FePO4. We get around this by adding an Acid to lower the pH thus stopping said reaction. This is exactly how all the All in One Solutions work.

 

[BigWave]

A great anology is my new DIY All in one solution I just made thats based off a well known name brand. I wont devolge the recipe. Needless to say it utterly failed with all salts in the 500mL container. Produced this stuff that looked like snow which took up about 2/3rds of the container. I initally added 0.5 grams Ascorbic acid while creating the solution. I threw in another 1 gram of Ascorbic acid and the bottle became crystal clear.

 

[Burr740]

Like Steve said Ascorbic or other acid are mainly used to set the PH inside the solution, for the purpose of keeping the nutrients in an available state and not reacting with one another. The low PH also exerts a moderate anti-mold action, although I find its usually not enough if mold is really a factor

Potassium sorbate is strictly a mold preventative, a good one. It doesnt alter PH or help nutrients. It is actually somewhat dependent on the PH level of the solution. Technically it works best in the 4-6 range...but I can add it to straight tap with mid 7s and it still works powerfully well for our purposes.

Linn, I think it actually becomes sorbic acid in water after disassociating with K (eg, K and NO3 from KNO3) but I could be a little off on that...Im not a chemist either

In my micro solution, which has two kinds of Fe and all the other micros, I only use ascorbic acid at .5 gm per 500 ML. I have a test batch from 2017 in a clear glass jar that just sits around on various shelves in my tank room at house temperature and normal room light. It is still absolutely clear

Oddly enough a Macro solution is what likes to mold on me. It happens in just a couple of weeks. The solution will start turning brown and little transparent chunks of 'stuff' develop. Distilled water or tap makes no difference. Ascorbic acid wont solve the issue either

So in my Macro solutions I use potassium sorbate at .2 gm per 500 ML. This keeps it crystal clear indefinitely, tap or distilled water.

If you wanna make an all-in-one use both of them, and double the ascorbic acid. Steve's recent experience demonstrated why. Also stick with DTPA or EDTA Fe for all in ones. Weaker chelates like gluc tend to be a little more tricky crammed in the same bottle as PO4

 

[Jellopuddinpop]

Thanks for giving me a plug guys! Yes..quite a few years ago my good friend Gregg and I began working on making micros ourself. Becaue lets face it, right now the hobby has two choices, pre-retail liquids or csm-b.

The former can get expensive quick, the latter is designed to dose pounds at a time for agriculture or hydro applications

Well it didnt take long to come up with a design that blew both those options away. Gegg doesnt sell things, not many 1%ers are interested in making 20 xtra buks a week selling plats or some new fangled fert recipe. Well...I am lol

6 years in the making, my retail version is on the verge of release. Many big name hobbyists have been using it for years and they all love it. Ask Vin

In the mean time here is my latst an greatest recipe so far. Ive reached the point where there is nothing more to tweak. The following recipe is what the retail version is gonna be

And no I dot care about posting my recipe. anyone who wants to beat me with a retain version canbe my guest! nIts only going to help the hobby

here is the recipe. The ppm listed are what it adds per dose. Of course all these amounts can be tweaked to suit an individual needs. I would suggest keeping all the ratios generally where they're at and just using fe as a proxy to go up and down

These amounts are for one dose of 2 L per 10 gal of tank water. Suggested dose is 2 ml per 10 gallons 3x per week, along with 50-60% weekly water change. I doubt anyone is gonna need more, but low dosing folks can simpley adjust the quantites

Each 2 ml per 10 gal dose adds the following

*Fe DTPA .13
*Fe gluc - .04
Mn - .027 ppm
B - .025 ppm
Zn - .023 ppm
Cu - .0022 ppm
Mo - .0011 ppm
Ni - .0005 ppm (Ni is optional)
Also add .5 gram of ascorbic acid per 500 ML. This is to set the PH and prevent mold

Im not gpoing into instruction how to do it. this is not for beginners and one should already understasnd what ppm means and how to use a nutrient calculator If you can make a macro solution based on how much ppm you want, then this no sweat, Works the sasme way just with a few more measurements

I do have diy kits available for $89 shipped. Comes with a few years worth in a heavy duty storage container and klittle jars to hold the individual compounds 9

@Burr740

Just because I'm pretty dense, the recipe above boils down to the following ppm / week, correct?

*Fe DTPA .39 (is this 10% or 11%?)
*Fe gluc - .12
Mn - .081 ppm
B - .075 ppm
Zn - .069 ppm
Cu - .0066 ppm
Mo - .0033 ppm
Ni - .0015 ppm

If I'm front loading Macros and have an auto-doser, is there any harm in just doing 1/7 of these weekly targets every day?

Also, will you be selling Fe Gluconate? I'm sure I could find it on Google, but I would prefer to buy it from the guy who did all of the work and will be launching his own fert brand!! Do you know when your webstore will be up and running?

 

[GreggZ]

If I'm front loading Macros and have an auto-doser, is there any harm in just doing 1/7 of these weekly targets every day?

Your numbers are correct, and yes you can doe 1/7 daily. That's what I have been doing for years.

As to the rest will have to wait for Joe to chime in.

 

[*Ci*]

And just because I’m pretty dense, as well - front loading means? Dosing all in one day, once a week?

 

[Jellopuddinpop]

And just because I’m pretty dense, as well - front loading means? Dosing all in one day, once a week?

Dosing your NPK all at once, immediately after your water change. This helps your NPK levels stay stable throughout the week instead of starting lean immediately after a water change and ramping up.

 

[GreggZ]

And just because I’m pretty dense, as well - front loading means? Dosing all in one day, once a week?

If you want to take a deep dive here is a link to my Tank Build where I discuss front end loading.

Journal - Greggz 120G Rainbow Fish Tank - Part Deux!

I hope everyone who has joined is enjoying the forum. Over time my plan is to post summaries of many of the discussions from my old long running thread that I kept on another site. Keep in mind these posts are my thoughts on a particular subject based my experience. Others may have other ideas...

scapecrunch.com

 

[BigWave]

As we all know fine leaved plants are great Micro / Trace element indicators.
2 weeks ago I mixed up some Burr's Micros (latest version) and started dosing along with my normal All in One. You can clearly see the results plain as day on the Rotala bangladesh.

 

[Burr740]

Steve that is fascinating. Thanks for sharing those results!

@Burr740

Just because I'm pretty dense, the recipe above boils down to the following ppm / week, correct?

*Fe DTPA .39 (is this 10% or 11%?)
*Fe gluc - .12
Mn - .081 ppm
B - .075 ppm
Zn - .069 ppm
Cu - .0066 ppm
Mo - .0033 ppm
Ni - .0015 ppm

If I'm front loading Macros and have an auto-doser, is there any harm in just doing 1/7 of these weekly targets every day?

Also, will you be selling Fe Gluconate? I'm sure I could find it on Google, but I would prefer to buy it from the guy who did all of the work and will be launching his own fert brand!! Do you know when your webstore will be up and running?

JPP! Sorry for the long delay, Ive been out of pocket for a couple months.

Yep, those are the weekly totals and daily dosing 1/7 amounts to the same thing. Personally I think daily dosing works best along with 50% or less water changes. Now, I havent spent a great amount of time trying it with various water change volumes so this is partly theoretical, partly based on experience

But say youre changing 70-80%, there's going to be a big drop off in nutrient levels that are actually in the water. (which is why at this level its good to just front load macros) As micros go Fe is the main one we're concerned about, specifically chelated Fe that we want to stick around for a while in an available state. A lot of the other micros dont stick around long to begin with and all the plants need is a little "sip" here and there. Daily dosing sm amounts is fine regardless.

But I look at Fe similar to macros, think its best to have a certain mean level there and available all the time, .2 ppm or thereabouts.

So personally if I was daily dosing either one Id stick to 30-40% water changes. This will be a much more stable water column

Changing 50-60% I think dosing 3x week works best, but you can still front load macros.

Changing 70%+ I'd definitely front load macros. 3x week micros is still OK. Personally when Im doing 70-80%+ I like 2x Fe/micros

I think Gregg does pretty big water changes and daily doses micros, so there's a lot of wiggle room with dosing theories. This is just my take on it

ETA on website 1 month, retail liquids 2

 

[BigWave]

This is what I am currently dosing right now. 40 ml DIY vimi all in one into 93 gallons daily. Then 20 mls Burr's Micros.

 

[Burr740]

This is what I am currently dosing right now. 40 ml DIY vimi all in one into 93 gallons daily. Then 20 mls Burr's Micros.

Is that one dose of micros or?

 

[GreggZ]

I think Gregg does pretty big water changes and daily doses micros, so there's a lot of wiggle room with dosing theories. This is just my take on it

I change about 70% each water change. Right after I do a triple micro dose, then dose daily. Seems to work pretty good, but like you said likely plenty of wiggle room.

You can clearly see the results plain as day on the Rotala bangladesh.

This is a good demonstration of focusing on new growth. When you make changes, pay close attention to that new growth as it indicates how the plants are responding. Part of the "listening" to plants process.